Changes from switching to third edition

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So, what would be the changes, both good and bad, of a switch to the 3rd edition of AD&D? Let’s have a character by character examination.

  • Hawk Airrider

Well, one of the first things we notice is that even with the improved fighting abilities of most characters, Hawk is still our worst melee fighter. He does however dramatically improve in his shooting skills. His AC is slightly better in the new system as well. The change in the way saves work in third edition (based upon both saver and caster/poison/trap/whatever, rather than just on the saver) make comparisons harder. Still it is easy to see that Hawk’s Will save is dramatically better (to save vs a Charm Person, even cast by an Int 18 caster, he would still need only a 5+).

He also benefits from having a few more weapon choices available as well as several more spells per day. He also has a big advantage with the change in the skill system, which favours humans with high intelligence scores. All in all he has a good time under the 3rd edition.

Oh and he can now get himself a familiar.

  • Peregrine Airrider

Pez improves in many of the same areas as Hawk. His combat abilities are much better, making him almost (not quite, but almost) as good as Schallat. His AC is still far behind Schallat’s though, but is still better than it was. His saves are interesting compared with the others, having no exceptional save but a range of poor to decent ones.

Still makes him pretty terrible as a wizard at resisting enchantments.

He too gets extra weapons, extra spells and a nicely large set of skills. He too would be better off with this system.

  • Noman Kente

Noman would be one of the big changes were we to switch systems, mainly because he would change from being a 9th level fighter to being a multi-class 4th level ogre and 5th level fighter. Also, if as has been stated on several occasions, Noman is the strongest known ogre in the region then he is likely to need his Strength score increased to the maximum Strength of an ogre in the new system. This would be 28.

OK, that last part sounded scary.

If he stays at his old Strength (we put the emphasis on strongest known ogre) his hitting ability is about the same and it’s better if he goes up in strength. His damage actually drops, at least at old strength against large opponents, stays the same against small and medium creatures, and with the improved strength he can dish out a bit more. His AC is up anyway.

When it comes to his saves he looks to be better at resisting poison than ever. Meanwhile his ability to resist enchantments plummets. Bad news since he already has a habit of falling victim to every mind controller who comes along…

He loses out on the skills front due to that low intelligence. He also loses the multiple attacks and drops down to one hit per turn, which means that even with a higher strength score he won’t be able to dish out the same amount of damage. Overall, there’s very much a mix of pluses and minuses for Noman.

  • Brother Hector Smith

Oddly enough Smith will get to keep his multiple attacks. He will also have slightly improved chances to hit (at least with his primary hit, though his second has a reduced chance to hit). His damage and AC are exactly the same, but he has two excellent saves (very good on Fortitude and Will, but no so good on Reflex).

He also picks up the very useful spontaneous casting rule, as well as one or two extra spells. Unfortunately the rules for turning undead in 3rd edition are based around Charisma which means Smith is going to be almost supernaturally bad at dealing with all those pesky undead types (but at least it gives Ed the option of throwing the undead at us, without them being doomed from the start). Again, hit and miss, but with more hits than misses.

  • Schallat

Schallat is the problem.

Schallat is going to be like Noman. He would be classed as a 2nd level Lizardman and 7th level Cleric. This gives him an attack bonus slightly better than before and he gets a bonus to damage he didn’t have previously. His AC will be better, since 3rd edition lizardmen get better armour bonuses.

His saves are good all-round and he too picks up the spontaneous casting rule (though it seems less obviously ‘Schallatty’ than it did for Smith. His tail gives him a bonus to some skills such as Balance and Swim and he gets some natural claw and bite attacks. He also picks up an ability to hold his breath. He gets a few extra spells and would also get an extra nine hit points (due to the change in when you pick up bonus hit points for Constitution).

On the minus side he would be hampered by having few skill points and his levels of lizardman would mean he drops a few spellcasting levels, most crucially dropping him out of fifth level spells. Weapons would also be an issue for Schallat, as his weapon list is very unlike the one for third edition clerics. Only a massive tweaking would make that fit. Similarly he can only hold the undead at present, and so the standard cleric ability to turn would require adjusting. In fact it might be worth creating a new class to fit Schallat better, rather than try and make him fit the new cleric class.

Losing his flame strikes means Schallat is the one who loses the most by a switch, and it’d be a coin toss as to whether he wins or loses in such a circumstance. I’d say he probably does come out of it slightly tougher, but its by no means as clear-cut as it is with the Airriders. If we do shift it might be worth waiting until Schallat can do so while keeping his beloved flame strike.

I've thought about this problemin ther past, and there are a few points that I'd like to make. You know Pez and Hawks characters a lot better than me, so I want say anything there, but...

Smith

You missed one fairly large change with Smith - his hit points will vanish! This is for several reasons. Fisrt we has a special +1 hp per level for humans, which will go. The second is his con is split into health 12, fitness16. In the third ed this is a straight 14... except that in this systemh he's old enough to be middle aged, with all the resulting stat mods. This brings his con down to 13, which is only +1 per level. He is going to drop about 18 hp, which is quite a lot, even for him! That can be off set, by using the bonus stats characters get every level, but it's still a 9 point loss. As against that, his wisdom, and hence spell casting ability increases.

Noman

Are you sure he only gets one attack per turn? Wouldn't his base attack be +3 (ogre) + 5 (Fighter)=+8/+3? Anyway, he certainly changes a lot, as you said. To sum it up, he will do large amounts of damage compared to a 9th level human fighter, but without so many of the flashy disarms, spinning attacks and other anime style special moves fighters seem to get hold of at high levels.

Its also worth pointing out that Noman mutated in the past. He used to have str 20, dex 14, con 17, int 9, wis 14, cha 5 - or there abouts. Which got rearanged to str 20, Dex 17. con 14, int 5, wis 14, cha 5 after one of his returns to life. When recalculating his stats, did you base them off the originals, and then rearange, or take the rearanged stats and then calculate? As I recall the original stat mods for an ogre were +2 str, +2 con, -1 eveything else.

Definitely change his strength to the new system - remember its a different, more linear scale. Before anyone panics, remember that some creatures in the third ed have strengths scores over 40!

Schallat

Schallat is a problem - Lots of people have said that.

Actually, I think the new abilities for schallat would suit him better in many ways... He becomes less cerebral and far more visceral. Taking into acount the altered racial changes, his stats would be str 14, dex13, con 16, int 7, wis 17, cha 13. His hp go through the roof by + 18 due to increased con, and his hand to hand attacks become far more deadly - for one thing he wont even need a weapon anymore.

In short, Schallat becomes a war priest, leading the faithful against the enemies of chislev. He just does so with the natural power that chislev gave in, rather than by spells. It's rather how I see him, as the berserker priest.

Priest stuff

Here is my suggestion. The restricted weapons choice for the priests is well established - leave it in place. Smith used only blugeoning and schallat only piercing. However, give them both proficiency with martial and simple weapons of the rate type. Its about fair.

Spontaneous casting. Definitely positive energy for Smith, easy. Schallat, I think, channels negative - its closer to what he does already. The command/rebuke power causes the undead to cower in fear of the user, and because he would become a lower level priest than Smith, he wouldn't be as good at it. Furthermore, rather than being better at healing, it helps him to destroy. Both of these options are allowed by their respective alignments, so thats no problem.

Armour. Smith gets the lot, as per normal, and Schallat still gets nothing except dragon skin. To make up for that penalty, he should get a bonus... his famous berserker rages. He gets to rage like a barbarian of equvilant level against his racial and religious enemies. Which he does anyway.

Domains. I'd suggest law and war for Smith, seeing as he is supposed to be a vetran of many champaigns. Schallat... Chaos and destruction seems more his style.

Anyway, its all up for debate.

Andrew

OK, to avoid rambling I'm going to split these into smaller sections. There probably will be a small amount of rambling but hopefully this will contain some of it...

The Benefits of Higher Education

I think I mentioned above that Pez and Hawk would benefit from the changes in the skills system and Noman and Schallat would suffer. I didn't quite realise how big a difference until I did the maths last night...

  • Noman - 15 skill points
  • Schallat - 15 skill points
  • Smith - 52 skill points
  • Hawk - 78 skill points
  • Pez - 91 skill points

gulp

Smith

OK, one correction on your assessment of Smith. His base Con score, before Health/Fitness adjustment was 15, not 14. So his age adjusted Con would be 14, leaving him still able to get +2 to hit points. Unfortunately his latest character sheet is missing a list of race and class abilities, but I think you’re right on the bonus hit point thing. On the other hand he’s actually tenth level, so he’ll drop from 95 to 85.

That’s still 6 higher than Noman at present though…

I hadn’t spotted the age thing, which will have a couple of knock-on effects. He’ll lose the +1 on his Strength, and he’ll pick up a -1 on Dexterity (so he’ll really need to get a better suit of armour). It won’t change the bonuses on Intelligence and Wisdom, but his Charisma will finally rise above 3. A miracle of St Cuthbert indeed!

Noman and the Attribute Shift

Noman’s attacks. You’re right. I hadn’t realised that you get multiple attacks when your combined bonus hits +6. I thought it only kicked in when either class reached +6. As far as his stats go I just went with his current ones, and checked to see if they were feasible. My 3.5 Monster Manual gives Ogre stat bonuses as Str +10, Dex -2, Con +4, Int -4, and Chr -4. If we were to take away the old bonuses and apply these we could give Noman an all new stat-line of

Str 28, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 15, Chr 2 (assuming your memory is correct)

or post-resurrection

Str 28, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 10, Chr 9 (working from his character sheet)

Either of these would be making really huge changes to Noman’s stats (especially the Intelligence of 2). There’s also the easy option of keeping his stats at their current level of

Str 20, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 5, Wis 9, Chr 12

and either explaining the anomalous Dexterity as being one of the two attribute increases he could have picked up at 4th or 8th level, or just dropping the Dex to 16.

As far as allowing players to retroactively spend their attribute increases go it might be worth limiting these to Noman and Schallat. Hawk definitely came into the campaign at 9th level, and I think Pez and Smith both came in at 8th level, so would have already had their attribute ups before joining the campaign. Only Noman and Schallat have really earned their bonuses. On the other hand Smith could use them to offset the penalties from old age the shift would bring…

If we do allow the attribute increases I would recommend using the second of the three Noman stat-lines above and letting him use his points to nudge his Intelligence back up to 4. That would give Noman a healthy boost to his attack and damage, little change to his AC (since his natural AC bonus can stack with his armour, offsetting the loss to Dex), an extra 18 hit points (making him king of the hit points in the party, which makes a little more sense), leaves him absolutely dire in skills (but he was always going to be, whether his Intelligence was 4 or 5), a teeny bit better at resisting those charm spells, and a little less charming himself. More ogre-ish really…

Schallat, Smith again, and other matters for the Gods

Again with Schallat I hadn’t recalculated stats (I presume from your comments the previous mods were +1 Str, +1 Con, -1 Int, -1 Chr). I can see how those adjustments, especially the increased Strength which nudges him into the +2 to damage category, would help him fit a ‘force of nature’ theme. (And his hit points would put him only just behind ‘Old Man Smith’. Oh, how the mighty have fallen…)

When it comes to the priest class I think Smith should use it as written. Just about everything fits right in his case. I would even extend that to using the weapon rules of a 3rd edition priest, pointy weapons and all. After all, we’ve never seen Smith use anything but his maces, but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t turn out to be able to lob a javelin in a pinch. His two-handed mace (great-club on the 3rd edition weapon list) is a martial weapon but priests are allowed one such weapon if it’s the favoured weapon of their order (which it has been established the two-handed mace is).

With Schallat, I think you’re right to go with simple and martial piercing weapons. Yes, he picks up slightly more than he loses, but we can knock off the un-Schallaty weapons (the rapier being the most obvious one I can’t see him learning) to make it balance.

Remember with the undead that your Charisma bonus more than makes up for the lower level compared to Smith’s Charisma penalty (who unless he buys the Extra Turning feat will be limited to one turning a day to Schallat’s four rebukes).

I like the idea of borrowing the beserk rule from the barbarians. It makes sense. May I suggest that he can only count his lizardman levels against Jaraksin though. It may be a little trickier to handle but I think it fits. So at his current level he can only rage twice a day at Usa fanatics, for six rounds. But if a Jaraksin walks in the room, well, he can probably find enough anger in himself for one more rage…

Still, that’s a powerful ability. We may have to really pare that weapon list down. Hmm, the ranseur can go. So can the halberd and the scythe (not much agriculture in the swamp). I’d be tempted to axe the lances as well. Spears, yes. Lances, just seem a mite too civilised if you ask me. I'd even nix the crossbows. That doesn't give him a wide range of weapons but gives him the ones we'd associate with him.

We’ll obviously have to adjust the spellbooks a little as Schallat’s Protection From Evil would clearly be more likely to be the new Protection From Law.

As for Smith’s domains, I think we should definitely go with War. If we go with the ‘only simple weapons’ option for Smith he’ll need that to get himself the two-handed mace. For the other one Law would fit (I remember Ed saying something along the lines of the St Cuthbertites being more Lawful than Good on the Lawful Good pendulum), although Strength and Protection should be options as well. As for Schallat, well, I can’t argue with those two (and looking at the second level domain spells they give, Ed won’t be threatening us with any crystal creatures after a switchover).

Alex

For my two pennies worth, I'm happy with the Str 28, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 4 Wis 10, Chr 9 stat line, it does seem more Ogre-ish then its current status. As stated previously it would not be the first time he's gone through a drastic stat change (and we have just returned from Ravenloft - those Mists can have strange side-effects...) As long as Ed is okay with it, then I say go with this.

Despite his strength going up, he'll lose the old Ogre racial ability that boosted his damage. I'm therefore making a guess that his damage bonus wouldn't shift quite as dramatically as it would for a normal charactor moving their strength stat up that much, as the old system already had a provision for the massive amount of damage that Ogre's are capable of.

And in the defense of the Str 28 versus Str 20, wouldn't it be just a tad odd saying he's the strongest "known" Ogre when they get a +10 to the stat? That is like saying the strongest "known" Human has a Str 10...

As for Hawk, Pez & Smith's retroactive stat bonus, I'm in favour of granting them. Its one of the the benefits of increasing levels in this system, just as much as getting new skills, spells and so on, so I see no reason why they wouldn't get them. (And again, the suddeness of them occuring can be those Ravenloft Mists doing mysterious things again...)

Craig

Yeah, you're right about the skill points - it's one of the things I've never liked about the 3rd ed. Its perticularly irksome when you consider that Noman and Schallat get the same number of points, despite the difference in Int modifiers, -2 for Schallat, -3 for Noman. 15 points is realy laughable for a 9th level character - Aethelbourne had 16 at first!

For what its worth, Nomans strength of 28 gives a whopping +9 bonus to hit and damage. That gives him +16/+11 on attack (Roughly THAC0 3/8, compared with THAC0 7 that he has now. Is that right Craig?) and +9 on damage - or +13 with a double handed weapon. Also remember that he is a large sized creature now, with the associated -1 to hit and AC. However, he also gets to use larger weapons, including a huged sized two handed weapon, potentially, which would inflict 2D8 damage. On the whole, I definitely think that is an increase in combat ability.

However, before we go much further down this or any other line, I think its worth pointing out that 3ed characters are more powerful on paper than 2ed, pretty myuch across the board. It's also worth remembering that so are the monsters. A humble orc gets a +2 to hit and damage bonus.

I think the Ravenloft mists idea covers everything as well as it needs too!

Andy

Andy's right about the increase in monster's toughness. I know it's slightly off the subject but in my Rifts game (which I'm using a variation on the D20 system for) I had three Ankhegs attack the party. This is a creature that Pez regularly summons already, so it wasn't considered excessively nasty in the old system. One was able to gnaw about 52 points of damage off a character before being driven off (and they didn't even kill it in the end). And these were Rifts characters with laser weapons and explosives that do 4d6 damage and can automatically threaten a critical if they full-auto fire. I think we'd still struggle in some cases. And of course the Challenge Rating system means its a lot easier to judge how big a threat a monster is to the party (although not always; I thought Hengist had a much better chance of winning than he got in that last fight in the Dark Age campaign).

The other thing that makes monsters tougher in the 3rd edition rules are the class options. Just as we have Noman (a 4th level ogre, 5th level fighter) who's to say the next kobold tribe that tries to take us down in some kind of vendetta over a massacred clan or two won't have every tenth member be a 3rd level fighter, every twentieth be a 5th level fighter and the king be a 7th level cleric of Usa...

As far as the skill points go, remember it's not just intelligence. Smith, Hawk and Pez all have that bonus 13 points for just being human, and all three have a level up on Noman and Schallat at the moment as well. If you really want to worry, just imagine if Pez had taken up the Rogue class instead. (Mmm, 169 skill points...)

Remember though, skill points aren't everything. Any skill based on Strength I think Hawk would still lose out to Noman who would have that healthy natural bonus. Indeed beyond his farming skills I can't think of many Noman talents that wouldn't be covered by his natural abilities (I don't recall you putting many points in Intelligence based skills). And both Ogres and Lizardmen get natural bonuses to certain skills (swimming and balance for lizardmen, can't remember for ogres, but it might be jumping and climbing) which they should be good at or which their tails help them with (for lizardmen anyway...).

Alex

Remind me, are there any skills based upon strength in the new rules?

Schallats skill line up would change... well more sort of atrophy. His astronomy skill would vanish, and more importantly, it would hardly be worth try to learn knowledge - religion at all. Gaining one point per level as a cleric would give 7 ranks, which with his int penalty gives a total of +5, which isn't much for having invested half his points. With the extra stat points, there is a chance that Pez could equal that from his int bonus alone! Part of the problem is that religion used to be a wis skill, which it isn't anymore. I think his skills would be limited to concentration (He could get up to +10 on that), swimming and balance.

Straight up bonuses are limited, of course. The difference in skill points will only increase with level.


Andy

Another point - one that Geoff pointed out to me. Smiths hp might not change that much after all. At reaching 10th level he didn't get a hit dice, but rather a straight 2 hp. In the 3ed at 10th he would just get another 1d8+con. This is likely to be more than 2, so his hp loss will be mitigated.

Andy

Strength skills. I think Climbing and Jumping are both Strength based, which means Noman will excel at the running around mountainous terrain stuff (especially as I think he gets an ogre bonus to such things as well) which means he won't need to spend any of his skill points on such things. Again, very ogre-ish.

Just jumping back to the 'monsters are tougher' theme, we forgot one of the biggest reasons the monsters are tougher in third edition; they all get Constitution bonuses to hp too. This means even the humble orc gets a bonus hp or two and the high Con, high HD beasties are racking in 30-40 more hit points than before. Surely something to warm the cockles of Ed's heart...

Good news on Smith's hit points though. Let's recalculate. He was on 95. Even with the old age penalties he doesn't drop from the +2 con bonus, but does lose the bonus 'skills and powers' hit points. Since he wouldn't have had the bonus point when he hit 10th level (you only get them when rolling) he would have to drop 9 points. He would also drop the 2 he got at 10th level, for a total drop of 11, taking him down to 84. Now the good part. He gets to roll 1d8+2 for his tenth level hp, giving him a total of somewhere between 87 and 94. If he rolls an eight he only drops one hit point. Not bad when at one point he was threatened with losing twenty!

And on the skills front there is one big advantage to the third edition system that can mitigate a lack of skill points; the fact that in a lot of cases its the DM who sets the target score, or can assign modifiers to the DC. When it comes to matters to do with Chislev, I'm sure any DC Ed set for Schallat would be considerably lower than for the rest of the party because of his upbringing. It could even be argued that he would need a lower number for his astronomy skill, since he has lived most of his life outside a city with clearer skies for observing the night sky (although I'd only give a +2 modifier in that particular case). Relentless urbanites like the Airriders would have to cope with a night sky smudged by clouds of pollution. I wouldn't object to such modifiers for skills that have been traditionally used by the affected characters. Of course we could also rule that as a counterbalance to any such bonuses they come with the downside that they are perculiar to the character/background, so that all Schallat's names for the star signs are unknown to any astronomers outside Blackwater Glade...

I also wouldn't object to a house rule shuffling Religion (minus its Knowledge -) back to Wisdom.

Alex

I just spotted another change we haven't mentioned, but adds to the 'Schallat, Lord of War' theme. It suddenly twigged that if (as Andy pointed out to me with Noman) it's the combined base attack bonus that has to reach +6 to qualify for multiple attacks then Schallat too is (just) in the multiple attacks gang. Leaving only the wizards unable to wallop more than one foe at a time...

sigh

Alex

Relax, their wizards'. Wolloping people isn't in the job description. Throwing big spells is, and I think they can now do even more of that with the bonus spells for high intelligence.

As I recall, lizardmen usually have the multiattack feat anyway, so it's not too big a point. Nice, though.

Hmmm, this page is growing quite long. I think I might send Ed an email giving the cut down version - i.e. just the important things that might change.

Andy

Yes, all the spellcasters have more spells (except for Schallat's fifth level spells, but even he picks up more low levellers). And of course for Pez Monster Summoning starts at level 1 instead of level 3 so more things are going to crawl out of the woodwork. Also, I seem to recall that in 3rd edition it states that the summoned creatures are returned fully healed afterwards, even if they appeared to be killed, so there will be a lot less guilt about summoning them to die.

If you think about it, Schallat's going to get a lot of (admittedly low damage) attacks with those claws and bites. Something along the lines of +8/+3/+3/+3, all doing 1d4+2 damage (and going up to +10/+5/+5/+5, 1d4+4 damage in a besek rage). That's a potential damage of 24 (48 if he flukes a set of four criticals). Not too shabby.

Hmm, would it be an interesting idea if, when he goes beserk, Schallat automatically switches to claw/claw/bite? Its a nice idea if under the influence he switches to his most instinctive weapons.

Oh one other thing we haven't touched upon yet. Experience points. When I switched the Dark Age campaign I had two options. Work out what percentage of the way to the next level they were, then calculate what experience point total that would be in the new system. The other was to just let them keep the xp they had and see what level that gives them in the new system. I went with the latter as it was easier and only resulted in one change (Ed moving up one level). I think we will have to do the former in this case. It seems that if we did the latter system we all have enough xp to be well over 20th level.

Obviously that would be too big a change...

Alex

Yeah, a lot of this stuff will have to be run past Ed before we start chenging the system under his nose. He is the GM after all!

The other thing we need to think about is feats and extra stat points. (I too favour giving them out to everyone. Not doing so would be yet another house rule. I think he'll have enough of them anyway.)Speaking personally, I would recommend using them to emmulate the abilities we already have as closely as possible. I haven't got my 3e rules with me, but a few things spring to mind...

  1. Pez had a few bonuses with his staff. Weapon focus - staff is probably close enough.
  2. Schallat had AC bonuses from a stlye specialisation - sounds a bit like Dodge to me. He's got follows too, so that includes the leadership feat as well.
  3. Smith had bonus against alcohol and perhaps a few other things. Great fortitude would meake him even more enduring. If he has war as a domain, he automatically gets weapon pro. and focus with the two handed mace.
  4. Noman would probably have the leadership feat as well.

Andy

I seem to recall both Noman and Smith having the two-handed weapon style specialisation, which gave a bonus to initiative. That could be represented by the Improved Initiative feat. After his boxing match with the giants I suspect Improved Unarmed Strike and some other fisticuffs feats wouldn't be out of order for him. Smith could also take the one that offers bonus hit points too (only three, but it would help compensate for any loss (and could even leave him (gulp) gaining hit points from the change...)).

Both Hawk and Pez had a 'skills and powers' ability to increase the range of any spells they cast from their specialisation schools. This could be swapped for the feat that allows you to memorise spells at a higher level to increase their range. Hawk could also pick up the feat that increases the DC of your spells from a certain school (which resembles an ability he (but not Pez) currently has). Both could also take the Leadership feat to cover their followers in the Vale.

Alex

Technically, you are probably right about Smith, but feats are so rare, and 3 hp looks so insignificant compared to the number he already has, that I'm inclined to let him off. Spend that slot on something more useful.

Pez and Hawk have followers? Where did they come from? I knew they had an alliance with the vale elves, and also a selection of familiars/pets/summoned slaves but not actual followers. Still, I suppose you could take the leadership feat anyway!

Andy

OK. I’ve run through the various feats and thought about which ones suit everyone. Here’s my suggested look.

Pez gets a grand total of nine feats. His must-haves…

  • Alertness (He gets this automatically when Rebus is within arm’s reach.)
  • Enlarge Spell (Representing his current extra range on Conjurations)
  • Leadership (With his little elvish minions… True we haven't exactly seen much of the elves and Pez in the game, but ever since Pez took over the Vale our game-time has been taken up in Ravenloft. I would imagine that living in the same place for six months prior to that would help them bond.)
  • Scribe Scroll (Automatic for wizards.)
  • Simple Weapon Proficiency – Darts (Because they’re no longer automatic for wizards and I can’t imagine Pez without them.)

I’d also imagine these would work as well.

  • Ambidextrous (Rather than have a weapon focus to represent his skill with the staff I might go with this as it would help with double hits and also make throwing a dart from each hand more accurate, especially when accompanied by…)
  • Two Weapon Fighting (For roughly the same reasons.)
  • Point Blank Shot (To again represent his skill with darts.)

Leaving him with one other, which would have to be wizardry-based.

Hawk would almost certainly have to have…

  • Enlarge Spell (Because like Pez he had a similar ability in the old system.)
  • Leadership (Since he too should have a bunch of elf allies to call upon.)
  • Spell Focus (Hawk had an penalty to people’s saves versus his spells, which this would represent.)
  • Scribe Scroll (Because he has to.)

He would then have another four feats. Technically he should spend one of those on the sling (which he has, but which no longer comes as standard to wizards). On the other hand I can’t remember the last time he actually used it and I don’t associate it with him the way I do the darts with Pez. I’d recommend taking a few of the more magical ones as a good way to differentiate him from Pez with his more rough and tumble nature.

Noman also gets lots of feats (nine, like Pez). He too has some which seem a must.

  • Blind Fight (He’s always had that ability in the past. No reason not to have it now.)
  • Improved Initiative (He had the Two-Handed Fighting Style that improved initiative in the old system. This would be a good match.)
  • Leadership (The goblins, the giants and the rest of the city watch make this a given.)
  • Weapon Focus – Greatsword (Provides half the bonus that he got from the old weapon specialisation.)
  • Weapon Specialisation – Greatsword (Which provides the other half.)

Some others seem natural choices for the big guy.

  • Cleave (Allowing him to hack through an opponent into the one behind.)
  • Improved Critical – Greatsword (Allowing him to get those crunching hits in more often.)
  • Power Attack (Just the name seems to make this one a sure-fire Noman favourite.)

Schallat has only four feats, not being able to get any bonus feats from being human or from his class. His obvious ones include…

  • Dodge (To represent the AC bonus he had from Single Weapon Style Specialisation.)
  • Leadership (Because two hundred bakali can’t be wrong. Or if they are nobody’s going to argue with them…)

Another obvious one would be…

  • Weapon Focus – Claws (He can get three attacks a round with them, so a standard +1 to all of those attacks would be a big help.)

A metamagic one would seem like a good idea as well, or maybe Skill Focus in Astronomy (especially if we go with the 3.5 version which offers a +3 bonus instead of a +2).

Smith would have seven feats with the following being the most likely.

  • Great Fortitude (He had a bonus to save versus poison, which this would cover quite well.)
  • Improved Initiative (For much the same reasons I mentioned with Noman.)
  • Martial Weapon Proficiency – Greatclub (Which he would get by taking War as a domain.)
  • Weapon Focus – Greatclub (Again as a result of taking War as a domain.)

These ones would also fit him or be useful.

  • Extra Turning (Because without it he’s on one turning attempt a day.)
  • Toughness (He did have that extra hit point thing and while this is only three extra hp it’s the closest the new system has.)

He too could grab a few metamagics, with both Empower Spell and Maximize Spell being a good combo with his healing spells.

Alex

I've been looking at the leadership feat a bit closer, and I'm no longer sure if it is suitable for what we are trying to do with it. It mostly grants a cohort, rather than large numbers of low level followers. Bringing in a whole bunch of new characters into the champaign could cause a bit of trouble.

Anyway, we will be able to meet up soon and deiscuse this more.

As for 3.0 verses 3.5... If Ed has the 3.0 rules, I think we should go with them, unless there is some pressing reason not to.

Andy

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