Talk:Citizens of the Free State Of Antarctica

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Just did a clean up on the spelling and grammar. I hope I haven't changed anything too critical. One thought though. Wouldn't there be a significant proportion of the 'differently alive' (I would say about 35%) who can't keep up with fashions. As a result they don't wear clothes of the day or business suits, but stick with the clothes they liked to wear when they died/revived. Making Antarctica a very bizarre place to visit with the mix of unusual fashions.

Incidentally, while it constantly talks about being Antarctica you do at one point talk about the frozen north. Wouldn't it be the frozen south in that case?--Alex 18:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)


oops you noticed my mistake i always get the names of my poles mixed round as for north or south it depends witch is nearer to the largest land mas. As for fashion the citizens have only bean around for about eighty years and most of them are not that old. But you do have a point even in the last eighty years fashion has had some major changes. So as time goes on this would parable be more of a problem for the more dessicated citizens.

I was going to ad a bit about other times of undead that make there home in the free state and some of these could well be very old and very fashion challenged.

So if some deviant wants to play a zombie in flares and a chest wig it could be done.

P.s. I like you use of PC terms for the undead we will have to make a page of PC names for monsters. After all calling people ab human is going to be a little offencive in the modern world.--Geoff 13:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I have some ideas for vampires so can you hold off on mentioning them for a few weeks. Cheers. --Alex 17:34, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry alex just read your request after i had writen my last up date put what ever you like about vampires and i will re- work my bit around it.--Geoff 18:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is an idea. When a disk is placed into a new body the power of the soul animating it cause the corpse to warp until it resembles the original. Call it morphic memory, if you will. This will save a lot of trouble because it means that transfering from one body to another wont demand/allow someone to re-evaluate all their physical stats.

This might also relate to some of sandy's points on Which races. I'd recommand that the process cause all corpses to morph into roughly the same form, allowing undead of any original race to use much the same rules, rather than having to worry too much about whether HD and ability modifiers cary over, or if undead shapeshifters can still transform themselves, or even if undead centaurs can still run as fast.

If we fancy the idea of retaining some trace of the original species, we can create some feats, available only when first created, that give residual racial abilities. These might be some thing like:-

Centroid: +10 base movement, increased carying capacity (As four legged creature), counts as odd shape for armour.

Or

Satyr Horns: Allows for gore attacks.

I think this might give a good compromise. Andy 15:58, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know. I think it makes it a little too bland. And the appeal of the undead process is supposed to be about living forever in your own body. It's not much fun for any non-human applicants if they discover their body will be morphed into something human-like regardless of how they started out. I'll have a go at writing up some ideas and post them up for ridicule soonish. I still don't think the add-on aspect will be too complex. --Alex 17:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm with my brother on this, after all the only thing cooler then a flying monkey is an undead flying monkey...

Craig 16:04, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. Some ideas to think on.

[edit] The Undead Template

  • Size and Type: Type becomes Undead. Size remains as base creature.
  • Hit Dice and Hit Points: Remains the same as the base class. (Most undead in 3E get a d12 instead of their normal hit dice, as compensation for the loss of a Constitution bonus. See below for my thoughts on using Vitality to cover this.)
  • Initiative: Remains the same as base creature, modified by the Dexterity adjustment.
  • Speed: Remains the same as base creature. The undead cannot run though, except through the use of Vitality. For flying monkeys the maneuverability rating drops to clumsy.
  • Armour Class: Receives a natural Armour Class bonus based upon size (Small +1, Medium +2, Large +3).
  • Base Attack/Grapple: Remains the same as base creature.
  • Attack and Full Attack: Retains all the natural weapons and weapon proficiencies from his class.
  • Damage: Retains the normal damage for a creature of its type.
  • Space/Reach: Retains the normal space/reach for a creature of its type.
  • Special Attack: Retains none of the special attacks for a creature of its type.
  • Special Qualities: Darkvision up to 60 feet. They are immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease and death effects. They are not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability or energy drains. Immune to damage to physical ability scores, except to self-inflicted Vitality damage. They cannot be fatigued or exhausted and do not need to breathe, eat or sleep. They use their Vitality modifier for Concentration checks. They cannot put any ranks in Handle Animal or Ride skills, and receive a -4 penalty on any checks made on either skill.
  • They cannot regain hit points in the normal way (either naturally or by healing spells (including the normal D&D method of using inflict spells)), but can be healed by using Vitality. They can go to a negative hit point score equal to their current Vitality score, rather than the normal -10. They become inert (the equivalent of unconscious) when they hit negative hit points but are automatically stable, and do not risk bleeding to death. They can use Vitality to function at negative hit points.
  • Instead of the Constitution score they use a Vitality score, which represents the strength of the life-force which is animating the body. It is used for rebuilding and strengthening the body when it comes under attack, as well as for moving the (normally inactive) corpse around. These powers can only be activated by temporarily draining that life force. They can inflict temporary ability damage upon their Vitality, in exchange for activating one of the following powers. This is classed as a standard combat action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Only one point of damage can be taken unless a power specifically states that more than one point can be taken. Certain powers can also be activated as an automatic response to certain enemy actions. These will be noted as such below. Lost Vitality points are regained at a rate of one point per day, rising to two points per day if the day is spent resting. The Lesser Restoration and Greater Restoration spells can heal Vitality damage and are the only healing spells that work upon the undead.
    • 1) The undead can run for a number of minutes equal to his current Vitality score.
    • 2) The undead can restore a number of hit points equal to his level. This ability can only be used once every 24 hours.
    • 3) As an automatic reaction to an attack which requires a Fortitude save, and to which the undead is not (un?)naturally immune, he can reinforce his body and take 10 on the saving throw. He can if he wishes take two points of Vitality damage and take 20 on the save.
    • 4) The undead can gain temporary hit points equal to his current Vitality score. These last for a number of rounds equal to his current Vitality score.
    • 5) The undead can operate at negative hit points as if they possessed the Die Hard feat. This power can be activated when the undead is inert, and is the only action an inert character can choose to perform. Activating this power does not do any hit point damage, but choosing to take Vitality damage to activate other powers in the disabled state will count as a standard action and cause damage as normal, as you try to push too much power through a badly damaged corpse.
  • Base Saves: Retains the normal saving throws for its class.
  • Abilities: Receive a +2 bonus to Strength and a -2 penalty to Dexterity and Charisma. These are in addition to the normal attribute modifiers for the base creature.
  • Skills: Retains the normal skill point totals for the base class, including any bonus points for being originally human.
  • Feats: Retains the normal feats for the base class, including any bonus feats for being originally human.
  • Environment: The Antarctic, and anywhere else where they can find acceptance.
  • Organisation: Most remain connected to the organisations involved in reanimating them.
  • Allegiances: They can begin with any allegiances, although most include Antarctica. Many of the more extreme allegiances tend to fade the longer they remain undead.
  • Advancement: They advance as normal in their class.
  • Designer’s Note: There we go. Very tough and resilient, but slow and purposeful and it takes a long while to heal back to normal. And they have that “Just when you thought they were down, they get back up again” quality that you want in the undead.--Alex 17:26, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Just did a little clean-up on your latest additions Geoff, and ammended the section on vampires to include some of my ideas on how the Free State would treat such creatures (ie, a lot more sympathetically than most places!). I also added a little bit about the majority of non-bronze disc undead being immigrants who have come to Antarctica because they see it as the undead's homeland.

Hmm. I think we need a name for these disc animated undead. How does Bronze Zombies or Disc Zombies sound?--Alex 18:14, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a lot of special rules. Given that with this template idea you are adding all the special rules for any given race onto all those that are standard for the undead (Host of immunities, special results from spells and so on), along with all the effects from the template and these new vitality rules, and you've got several pages worth. That strikes me as a little too much. Could you imagine trying to explain all that to a new player? Remember that the special druid class got dropped from the dark ages campaign because it was too much bother. Can we try to keep this to a minimum? We're putting together a few rules to use, not writing a 120 page hardback rules suppliment.

Besides, how different is the rotting corpse of a human to the rotting corpse of a hobgoblin? The standard rules treat all medium sized zombies as being the same, which makes things so much easier. The only template undead I can think of are vampires and ghosts, while skeletons, zombies, ghouls, ghasts, whites, shadows, wraiths et al just have standard profiles. Most of the advantages of being a human come from their greater adaptability, but I'm sure becoming undead cuts into that. Can an undead satyr still find the same conection to his pipe music that let him charm them? Does an undead flying monkey (groan) still retain the vigor/magic to fly? Without a metabolism can a shapeshift, talented or otherwise, still transform?

The game gets a lot simpler if we answer these questions with a no. I like simple.

Lets just have stats for small, medium and large undead, with a few points for special features like natural weapons, faster/special movement and so on. Just have one set for each race. So a flying monkey is just a small undead citizen with wings. Still looks the same, acts the same and thinks of itself the same, it just saves a headache by avoiding 10,000 conditional modifiers. Andy 14:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Both zombies and skeletons are templates, and I based most of this on the zombie template. You say this is a lot of special rules. I say, apart from the Vitality rules and literally one or two tweaks, these are the standard rules for all undead. Either these guys are going to be undead and have most of these rules or they're not. I'm sorry to disagree with you, but I stand by this idea. Your ideas would just produce bland undead with no character. This is Alex masquerading as --Craig 20:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok i think i am going to go with the monster level sistem for my Citezen zombles with the slite modifier of a 0 level to alowe for the fackted that you may not become a zombie just as you are about to level up. This way it is seem to be the least complicated way of dealing with becoming a zombie. i think you would proble have to finsh gaining your zombie levels before you continue with your other careers. i also feal that this gives a nice feal of the freshly risen coming into there powers. It will also diter power plays from cashing on a couple of free hit dice of zombie power!--Geoff 20:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Done that way, it starts to look like a prestige class - so why not actually have it as one? Give it some easy entry requirements (+3 will, +3 fortitude saves would br my suggestion.) and say the process has to be begun before death. Once the soul has left the body, it is too late.

Most prestige classes have 10 levels, so that allows for different levels of adjustment to thir new condition. Andy 11:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Prestige class was what I was thinking of when I read Geoff's comment. My ideas for using Vitality from before would probably work better spread over ten levels...--Alex 20:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Just been looking through some of the details for the citizen class/race as written. The slight revision to the way natural armour class is gained was my suggestion to Geoff. The characters old con bonus from when they were alive (Racially modifiers and all.) is added to the natural armour class. Why? Converted the characters con to vitality, less racial effects, created a game inbalance. It madebecoming one of the undead an unfair advantage for those who started out from a low con race. The con penalty origanlly existed to off set some other benefit they recieved, removing it made them more powerful than other races.

In absolute terms this makes sense, the unfit may well benefit from becoming undead, but in terms of the game mechanics it creates a problem. The thing with original con effecting natural ac was my way around that. What used to be a healthy body becomes a more resilient corpse, and harder to damage.

Unfortunately, on review, I notice that it still says that con changes to vitality. That's a problem because it means that a high/low rolled con now gives it benefit/penalty twice over. I feel this needs to be adjusted. My personal preference would be for it be be rerolled, giving a random score. This retails an element of risk in becoming a citizen - you never know what you're gonna git, as Forestgump would say. Personally, I think being ritually murder in the hope of immortality should carry some risks!

Vitality seems to have mutated somewhat from my original idea, not just in terms of the rules but also what it represents. It started off as more of a psychological trait, reflecting the undeads ability to evolve, change and show a little enthusiasm. Its turned into more of an udead metabolic trait. That's not nescesarily a bad thing. The original idea makes more sense for the reroll, the new way is better for the direct conversion.

Anyway, whether you like that idea or not, I think the double counting needs to be addressed. Andy 10:52, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

My idea of what vitality is was that it basically equates to the soul's ability to get what is basically a lump of dead meat to move. I saw it more of a 'soul power', if you'll pardon the phrase, rather than as a trait of the body. As such I think it should either be a re-roll, or possibly an average of Wisdom and Charisma. I don't think it should have anything to do with Constitution. But others may disagree.--Alex 20:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

the reson why i was thinking about keeping the origanal value of con as the new vitality. was to help with game balance in so much that haw you place your origanal states has a major efect on the power of the carictor. so any later re-roling of a stat has esome major efects of the power. as for using the con stat as aposed to any other i figured that con is't just phisical health it is also the will to live and keep on going through pisical pain so when you think of it like that it isn't that bigger leap to think of it as a spiritual strengh.--Geoff 14:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

That's an interesting and valid point, but as it stands we've still got the double counting problem, I can think of a couple of ways round this:-

  1. Just convert the con score in its entirity, racial modifiers and all, and leave natural ac unchanged.
  2. Convert con to vit, less the racial changes. However, the racial bonus effects natural ac bonus. Half the bonus and add/subtract it from the ac.

So in the second example, a rhinoman with a total con 16 (including +4 racial bonus) would change to a citizen with vit 12, but a +2 bonus on the listed AC. Any thoughts? Andy 15:02, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

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