Talk alliance war archive
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I'm guessing this is our World War II equivalent, the one people still think of when someone says 'the war', right?
Can we have a bit on here where we can decided the sides? These are the ones I think Andy mentioned, as well as some I'd like to put in opposition to them.
In the Red Corner
- Kalchichi
- The Mermen?
- Another land on Finrize
- Some lands in Coruvain
In the Blue Corner
- Kelhaven
- Riven (despite their (reciprocated) loathing for Kelhaven)
- Stornhaven
And just so I don't write anything too off-beat for them I'm guessing that the course of the war goes something like-
- Some minor dispute in Coruvain kicks off as various allies join in on either side.
- Kalchichi sees it as an opportunity to expand.
- Most of the initial fighting takes place in Coruvain with other flash points around the world.
- Kalchichi gets driven back to Timur Bay
- Somebody ends up dropping a nuke on Zaphor
With some other stuff happening around that. Am I going wildly off-base here..?--Alex 12:35, 25 April 2008 (BST)
Not exactly as I saw it. I was thinking more of
In the red corner
- Kalchichi
And no-one else, because nobody likes them much! Actually, I had thought that perhaps the Draken Empire might have a similar enough world view to ally with them. Or perhaps that would just make the two fight to the death instead!
In the blue corner
- The Mermen?
- Another land on Finrize
- Some lands in Coruvain
As sort of like a three way tag team. I wanted this war to be an event that kicked the Kalchichi empire off its pedestal, and curbed its dominance in modern world. Serves them right for throwing their weight around for too long.
The "some lands in coruvain" was going to include areas that used to be part of the Kalchichi empire. They would have left the war as independent nations, which is what they wanted. In other words, I had planned on an element of civil war in the whole thing.
So, I was thinking (Roughly) of a sequence that went like this:
- Kalchichi descides to push into northen Finrize, for some reason I've not yet decided upon
- They move troops out of coruvain, and separatists cash in on the opportunity.
- Powers in coruvain see an opportunity to kick those blasted kobolds off their continent, and pitch in.
- Everything goes down the shitter.
- BOOM! Was that your nuke? How rude.
And the Mermen? They join the war to stop Kalchichi dumping into the sea! The poor merman had been choking on Kalchichi's toxins for years, so it didn't take too much bribing to get them interested.
That was the original, semiformed plan. I'm interested in adding those three you mentioned, though. Andy 16:45, 25 April 2008 (BST)
So more like a Napoleonic war with everyone ganging up on France by the end of it...
A quick guide to the unusual natures of two of those lands...
Kelhaven - A city-state with several nearby allied towns and cities. They have an unusual governmental system that is either extreme communism or extreme capitalism (the jury is still out on which). The land is nestled in the mountain spur and is incredibly hard to invade. It also has the extremely talented King Kel as its leader, who would end up as a prominent (Churchillian) figure in such a war. It is also home to the Ghostwing family, the oldest (and most powerful diviner) wizard family.
Riven - There is a huge crack in the land, where it meets the Carpathis Mountains, a chasm which has given the land its name. In the chasm is the largest concentration of natural interplanar portals known to scholars. This has led to the large percentage of the population that are of the infernal races, which include many of the ruling classes and all of the ducal family. With such a ruling elite it is unsurprising they are considered the most 'evil' land in Coruvain.
Both lands were never conquered by Kalchichi, but would both have been happy to support rebellion. Stornhaven has borders with Kelhaven and could be those Kalchichi lands that bordered Kelhaven and which Kelhaven helped free.
Hope that helps...--Alex 20:26, 25 April 2008 (BST)
Yes, I'd be much happier with the Napoleonic analogue. While similarities to the real world make the fourth world seem more real, if they are too close it just makes things look unimaginative. So we have the napoleonic war with modern weapons and nukes.
A couple of questions aboout those two nations. First off, what race is King Kel, and how old is he? I had assumed that Kel was still alive today, so if this war happened 75 years ago, he is unlikely to have been human, unless there is some reason for his longevity. I don't think hobgoblins live any longer than humans either.
As for Riven, where did all these infernal races come from? I don't recall anyone mentioning them in Which races. There is still room for some more species (I have one choice left myself) so they could be added. Personally, I'd be happy if Craig swopped them for his flying monkies! In any event, I think we need a bit more about the other planes if we proceed with adding infernal hybrids. I take it these are related to Demon Gods servants in some sense?
Did you ever look at the last piece I wrote for What about other planes? As mentioned, I wanted to avoid all the standard DnD planar creatures - I hate the idea of some Githyanki or whatever worming there way into the game. Andy 14:39, 26 April 2008 (BST)
Ah, King Kel. I was wondering how long it would be before I had to give a few details on him. He is human, but is functionally immortal. How, when and where this happened is subject to debate, since he himself is reluctant to reveal how (which some suggest means that if it was known how it could be reversed and he could be killed). What is known is that he said it happened in his 'adventuring days' which must be before he founded the fortress at Kelhaven around 1500 years ago. He has been king of Kelhaven, on and off, for that time with sometimes whole centuries going past when he is missing, presumed... missing. (That's why he was absent when the Wizard Families emerged, and the ruling family was not so efficient.) He came back to Kelhaven around a hundred years ago and overthrew his corrupt descendants and set up the communist monarchy that is happily running to this day.
I am also happy to avoid the standard D&D planar creatures, but would want to make the infernals the sort of big nasty demonic types that scare the hell out of players. But much more of a make-our-own kind of demons, rather than just plundering the Monster Manual. And they shouldn't be on the races list, because they should all be really, really scarily beyond player-race levels. As to where they come from and who they serve... Well I hadn't really got that far. We could make them servants of the Great Nasties, or we could make them independants on a lower power scale than the Cthulhu types, while still being more powerful than normal humans. Not everything has to be tied into the Big Nasties. They would still have plenty of mortal foot troops to do stuff as well.--Alex 13:03, 2 May 2008 (BST)
That explains most of my questions about Kel.
I'll leave it up to you to deside whether or not these demonic landlords are related to the Demon Gods. As you say, they could well be of the same ilk, but not the same allegience. In fact, if any of them resemble Pan, they might even be of the same Elk.
Bad jokes aside, I think it time we established a little more about the planes, but this isn't the place for that discusion.
By the way, it seems that Geoff has thrown the Golems into the alliance war as well, although mostly as self interested freebooters. If the war marks an up turn in brotherhood activity, then it might be best to know which sides had been employing them. Kalchichi would be amongst them. THe idea had had forming for the mermen and the other nation on Finrize makes them unlikely to do so. What about the Coruvian powers? The answer to this question will help to determine where the golems are most common today. Andy 18:12, 2 May 2008 (BST)
I like the idea of one nation being freed by emerging sentience amongst the occupying golems and then being the ones to apply the sentience test. While Kelhaven probably signed such a thing into law quickly I don't want to fall into the trap of having them do too much though. I suggest we pick an unused country like Daek or Kaskalle and say that was where golems first became legal citizens. I imagine much of the fighting would be taking place up at the Kelhave/Riven end of the coast, so Kaskalle would make sense, with the kobolds leaving the golems down the other end as garrisons under a few kobold officers and then not having any 'living' troops to halt the rebellion when it starts.
Oh, one other idea. Since my ideas for the Keffen Republic would be that it is fairly new at this point I can see it as being a big battleground in the war; the kobolds trying to seize it before it can truly become independant of the Draken Empire, Laertian Coasters trying to help it remain free and the Draken Empire trying to absorb it back into itself again. Indeed if you want a trigger to start the war that kind of three way conflict sounds like it could do it. Especially if we say it was Kalchichi that provided most of the resources and weapons that helped the Keffens break away in the first place (which they might if they thought they could nab it after it broke free). --Alex 20:29, 3 May 2008 (BST)
It would make sense for the Kobolds to want to leg up their largest rival on Coruvain, so I think your idea works out fine. As I said, the Kobolds lost some lands to rebellion themselves in the war, and I can see the Draken Empire getting a bit of revenge by helping kobold rebels in return!
These breakaway Kobolds might have been happy to accept the Golems, but that doesn't nessesserily mean that they codified the sentience test. They would have had other things to worry about after the war, unless Daek or Kaskalle are the breakaway kobolds!
So the list of events looks a bit like this now
- Kalchichi sees an opportunity and helps out the Keffen Rebels
- Golems start to get upity ideas, and stop defending Kalchichi lands
- Separatist Kobolds make a bid for freedom too.
- The Draken empire helps the separatists.
- And then I suggest...
- The various Kaffen and Kobold rebels form an Alliance
- They assure there own independence from both Kalchichi and the Draken empire.
Which looks pretty good, but it doesn't explain what my northern power in Finrize had to do with anything. Perhaps I can just drop them out of the war altogether. Andy 14:52, 4 May 2008 (BST)
When I was talking about a rebellion in Kaskalle I was thinking more about a human/hogoblin underclass in Kaskalle taking advantage of a golem rebellion to throw off the kobold oppressors, and then they institute the sentience test as thanks for the golem's assistance. Of course as with many revolutions based on racial groups there would probably be poorer kobolds with the rebels and quisling humans and hobgoblins siding with Kalchichi, but on the whole it becomes a 'kick out the kobolds' kind of revolution.
As for how Finrize got involved, well the Draken Empire is kind of my Romans/Chinese combined land. Very powerful around two thousand years ago, pulled back their borders around fifteen hundred years ago (letting the Laertian Coast colonies go), and slowly being overtaken by everyone else over the past thousand years. But during their heyday they colonised much of the world, including setting up colonies on Finrize, some of whom could still have been loyal or had strong ties to Draken. So when Kalchichi starts aiding the Keffen Republic (kinda India-ish in size and economy) Draken could have started having its Finrize allied lands start hassling Kalchichi's allies as retribution (while still being able to say "What, us? We didn't do nuthin'...") which either provokes the Kalchichi allies to retaliate, or in some cases to say "Is being Kalchichi's ally worth this?" With the end result that the Kalchichi loyal lands find themselves having to deal with the Draken-friendly lands and the backsliding Kalchichi allies. And Kalchichi finds itself having to deal with problems on every border, which is what I think your plan entailed...--Alex 11:58, 6 May 2008 (BST)
The settelment idea, doesn't really fit with what I had planed for northen finrize. I was going to have it as a druidic stronghold, so it might have reason to be friendly with Glade, if they were involved in any way. I was thinking of their ancestors being more germanic than chinese/roman or anything else. They were pretty primitive until the kobolds turned up, but they adopted a lot ogf kalchichi's technology. I have, however, mentioned the existence of at least two groups in Balvase, currently owned by the kobolds. One of them might have been a colony of the Draken empire, and retained sympathies for them. In the up coming war they create trouble within the empire for awhile then flee over the boarder into the northen area, which gives them shelter.
Hmm, my idea for including the mermen seems to have disappeared somewhere along the line, but I've had a thought about that. The merman are very primitive, stone age basically, but they discovered magics to cross the dimensional boarders centuries before the land dewellers. Does anyone fancy having an Astral Front in the alliance war? I'm sure the merman could be invovled in that.
So what happened to the Kobolds in Coruvain? It seems unlikely that they all managed to evacuate. Did the Kaskallians kill them all? The idea of the kobolds being the victims of attempted genocide for the second time would go a long way to explain many of their current attitudes. Kalchichi often looks like the "bad guy" in the history of the fourth world, but if they got masacred and then nuked it does create a bit of sympathy for them. Plus it gives them plenty of reason for wanting a rematch. Andy 11:45, 8 May 2008 (BST)
